“There’s No Such Thing As Normal.” Taken from Carnal Knowledge, Prestel, 2020.
Photo © Elizabeth Renstrom
Zoe Ligon and Elizabeth Renstrom's new book Carnal Knowledge (Prestel, September 2020) updates and normalizes sex education - a topic that is still sensitive in 21st century America. For many Americans, it’s a subject that was excluded from the core curriculum and is vital to our overall health and happiness.
Longtime friends Zoe Ligon and Elizabeth Renstrom are a writer and photographer dream team. Ligon brings years of experience as a sex educator, journalist, and performer to this project in seven sharply-crafted chapters that address everything you've ever wanted to know about sex. This ranges from the basic human anatomy and the importance of healthy relationships to sex toys and supporting sex worker rights. Renstrom's vivid, 90s aesthetic-influenced photographs complement the hilariously frank text.
Without further delay…
Roula Seikaly in Conversation with Zoe Ligon and Eizabeth Renstrom
© Elizabeth Renstrom
Roula Seikaly: Could you describe your shared creative process?
Zoe Ligon: While Liz and I were together for some of the shoots, many of them were done by Liz alone. I’ve known Liz for so long, and know her work so well, that it was very easy to do my writing and simply trust Liz to bring it to life. We discussed the basic concepts of shoots in advance, and I mentioned core themes that I thought were important to highlight, but it was quite easy to align my words and her writing. Even though we did the majority of our work independently, our friendship and ease with communication made it effortless to meld the images and words into a shared body of work.
Elizabeth Renstrom: As Zoe mentioned, I did a lot of the image-making independently in my studio in NYC, but really leaned on her words as the kickoff off for visual metaphors. Zoe filed her tips first in the process of making the book, and from there I proposed sketches of visual scenarios for each one. For example, for the tip Virginity: A Concept, is all about imagining a world where we don’t place so much significance on the absence or presence of a hymen. I knew I wanted to play with outdated terms like ‘cherry’ and reference how we often put the notion of ‘losing virginity’ on a pedestal.
Each tip started with a brainstorming process in this way and lead to what kind of props and art direction I wanted to follow. I tend to do all of my own prop direction in both editorial and personal work, so I really like to let objects guide narratives in this way. The internet is the primary conduit for sexual content, and therefore central to how people of all ages learn about sex and sexual pleasure.
“Birth Control That Suits You,” taken from Carnal Knowledge, Prestel, 2020. Photo © Elizabeth Renstrom, 2020
Seikaly: Why produce this project as a book, an analog format, as opposed to a website? Are you concerned about accessibility?
Ligon: My earliest published pieces were featured on sites like Refinery29, VICE, and Huffington Post. I also would publish less-polished pieces in spaces like Tumblr. Eventually, my online writing started being tailored to the format of Instagram, instead of how I actually want to write. While the wide reach of social media makes it very easy to get information out there, writing for a specific online platform or website hinders my ability to grow as a writer, and makes it more difficult to discuss more sensitive topics in a vulnerable way. The Internet lacks a lot of context, and while many of my online posts about sex have given people a- ha moments, any post with traction invites trolling and harassment -- not just of myself as the author but of the people who dare to share candid feelings in the comments.
While the Internet provides access to information, the beauty of a book is that it’s free of the noise and distractions of the internet. It is something that you can engage with that isn’t a screen containing millions of people battling for attention and reactions. Our devices are designed to be addictive, and in our age of influencers and algorithms, having a physical book about sexuality can feel deeply personal. We still need online education, and there is an online resource list that is accompanying the release of this book, but there is something very intimate about reading a physical book that the internet cannot provide.
“Sex Toys Are Sex Tools.” Taken from Carnal Knowledge, Prestel, 2020.
Photo © Elizabeth Renstrom, 2020
Seikaly: Why was it important to cover such a wide content spectrum - from the basic physiology of human genitals to suggestions for destigmatizing and decolonizing sexual pleasure - in a single book?
Ligon: I wanted to challenge the reader to think about sexuality outside of the ways that it specifically applies to them. Even if a particular idea or page isn’t relevant to someone’s personal life, it is important to understand different aspects of sexuality so we can be more compassionate, intimate beings. So many of the questions I receive aren’t really questions, they’re more like check-ins, like, “is it okay that I enjoy X?”
Even if this book doesn’t cover the specific question a reader has, I want it to illustrate that there really is no right or wrong way to be a sexual person -- as long as you are being mindful of safety and consent of course.
“Sex Work is Real Work.” Taken from Carnal Knowledge, Prestel, 2020. Photo © Elizabeth Renstrom, 2020
Seikaly: These images appear heavily influenced by 90s visual pop culture. Why is that important for this project?
Renstrom: That wasn’t necessarily my intention with the aesthetics, but I do think a lot of my work weaves in themes of product nostalgia, and it may be coming through in some of the props for sure. When we originally did the mini-series on Topic Stories that kicked off this project, we wanted to reference the idea of dated informational handbooks, ie. the kind that may be passed out in a gym/makeshift sex ed classroom. This, I’m sure, influenced my thinking while doing the new 40+ photo illustrations.
The most important things I wanted to get across aesthetically were 1) a sense of play and humor as an entry point into topics which can often feel difficult to discuss and 2) be able to have people project themselves onto the tips. I shied away from using too many models because I really wanted the reader to be able to get personal with a lot of what’s being brought up—and sometimes when you see a person modeling something and they don’t look like you it can be alienating. Overall, I wanted to get across the reliability and humor Zoe brings to a lot of her educational work.
“If You Have a Vulva, You Have a G-Spot.” Taken from Carnal Knowledge, Prestel, 2020. Photo © Elizabeth Renstrom, 2020
“Virginity A Concept.” Taken from Carnal Knowledge, Prestel, 2020. Photo © Elizabeth Renstrom, 2020
Seikaly: Does this work visualize Zoe’s writing? If so, why is that important?
Renstrom: I definitely think the images get across what makes Zoe’s education, writing- style, and business so amazing—her humor and accessibility. I knew I wanted to bring that energy into how I worked to visualize each tip. I think it’s very important, especially in sex education, to start from that place of being approachable/vulnerable. That way people who wouldn’t normally pick up a book about intimacy may find something that helps them. Or if a person can maybe step outside of how they used to visualize setting boundaries in a way that makes it easier for them to do i.e. even making post its notes as a reminder for their partner. These are the ways I hoped my photographs would relate to Zoe’s tip format.
Seikaly: Did you look at other media (books/magazines/zines, movies, websites) as you worked on this project? What sources resonated with you, or what did you reject, and why?
Ligon: I don’t recall any specific media influencing us, but Liz and I like a lot of the same things. We both love bizarre, campy movies, internet voyeurism, and 90s nostalgia. As my friend over the last decade, Liz has absolutely influenced my taste in art and media. I think a lot of the imagery Liz shot for the book conveys a shared sense of humor between us; the image of a tiny poop standing in a doorway provided us with endless laughs.
"Waxing and Waning Sex Drives." Taken from Carnal Knowledge, Prestel, 2020. Photo © Elizabeth Renstrom, 2020
© Elizabeth Renstrom
Seikaly: How would you describe the current state of sex education? Was it important to publish this book at a time when accurate and empowering information sharing is socially and politically shunned?
Ligon: While there is a lot of accurate and empowering information online, there is just as much disempowering misinformation. Sometimes I feel so hopeful that people are slowly letting go of sexual shame, yet then I am reminded that trans women of color are murdered and there’s no media coverage, that people don’t believe survivors, and that people are okay slamming sex work, then go watch porn later that night. Sure, some things are less stigmatized now, but no one is free until we are all free.
I wanted this book to be bright and appealing, then fold in the harder- hitting issues so that people might understand that you can’t divorce sexual pleasure from the issues of sexual oppression. In a world where comprehensive, pleasure-positive sex education is hard to come by to this day, it’s hard to know what to believe. When there is no funding for scientific research, and the research we do have is heavily biased and non-inclusive, we have to get creative in the ways we educate.